Ramy Burjony's Blog
Pharmacy students
Wednesday, June 30, 2010
I have come across many pharmacy students over the past few years and have heard about the increasing numbers of students going though the system. With such a growth in admissions and fewer work vacancies, I think we need to crack down and restrict the number of yearly admissions into university.
In comparison to a few years back, when the University of Auckland Pharmacy School opened its doors, the students now being admitted are different. By different I mean they are not passionate about becoming pharmacists. The pharmacy degree is chosen simply to secure a decent job. Many students just aren’t fit to be good pharmacists, with poor communication skills, no passion, no enthusiasm, no dedication and a lack of confidence. There’s no willingness to help people and go that extra mile.
I have met many students who have chosen pharmacy as a career simply because they did not like anything else, and saw it as an easy degree. Well let me tell you it’s not.
You need to be able to run a pharmacy as a solo pharmacist, to react to situations that put you out of your comfort zone. You need to be able to handle a curve ball when it is thrown at you and not just become accustomed to routine.
I am not speaking from a business point of view, but am simply addressing some of the characteristics that make a good pharmacist.
I think the criteria for entry needs to be looked at. There is simply a grade point average that needs to be met, followed by an interview process. It is difficult to tell a lot about a person in 20 minutes and an interview alone these days just ain’t cutting it. There needs to be some form of written test such as UMAT, which is a test used specifically to assist with the selection of students into the medicine, dentistry and health science degree programmes at undergraduate level. There needs to be some form of a personality test, as part of the selection process.
I also think the interview process need to be modified and altered in a way to fine tune the selection. In my opinion the current way the interview questions are set up simply do not enable us to differentiate between someone who is answering the questions truthfully and someone who is well trained to tell the interviewer what they want to hear.
The interview needs to put students on the spot and find out how they would react to different situations. Currently a student who is a bookworm can study their way into passing an interview. Many students prepare stock answers for questions they anticipate, and regurgitate what seems to be the perfect answer. Why does it matter whether you have volunteered at a rest home many years back, or whether you did something that could boost your CV and credentials? The majority of people can do that. We need to find students with natural charisma and then teach them how to become pharmacists. Hey, being smart is great and a must, but natural charisma and confidence is vital. Street smarts and common sense are vital.
Many of the students around these days are very cautious, fragile and seem to lack confidence. I think this is sad because a pharmacist needs to radiate confidence and knowledge, otherwise the patients will not be able to trust you. And where would we be without trust?
Cheers
Ramy Burjony
About Ramy Burjony
Comments
this is wat ramy said also UoA student lol "University of Auckland Pharmacy School opened its doors, the students now being admitted are different. By different I mean they are not passionate about becoming pharmacists. The pharmacy degree is chosen simply to secure a decent job. Many students just aren’t fit to be good pharmacists, with poor communication skills, no passion, no enthusiasm, no dedication and a lack of confidence. There’s no willingness to help people and go that extra mile.'
so UoA according to u passion grows @ 23 + wel then choose a pharmacy carrer @ that age . u still havent answered my quest. y does ova 75% of auck student want to do medicine. if they cant get in den they do pharamacy.
so u saying they had the passion 2 do medicine from age 18+ . and passion 4 pharmacy at 23+.. buls#@$tt..
Hi SK, again i'll repeat what i said below, when you're 18 or 19 you don't even know yourself well enough let alone to be in the capacity to have conclusively chosen a career for all the right reasons. Most people are 23, 24 or older when they begin to form true purpose to their life and gain the maturity to integrate vision, career and purpose together. That is when the passion for what they are doing manifests, so whether pharmacy was their 1st choice or not becomes irrelevant. Passion grows through experience, in most cases, you don't just wake up with it without reason. Hope that answers your query! :)
- Hey Ramy, thanks for your comment. There is a summer studentship currently being offered where they are reviewing the FMHS admission models. I'm not sure how they intend to go about it, but writing in to voice your opinions could be useful perhaps? Some countries have made pharmacy a grad school discipline, i think that is a great way to go if a student's initial passion for the profession is in question. By the time you're 21 or 22, you definitely have a better idea of what you want to do in life than you did right after leaving school. Finally, I'd like to stress that personally, I believe it isn't so much the BPharm that prepares us young pharmacists, its the placements and the internship that teach us. Theoretical knowledge only gets you so far, its the practical application in real world situations that teaches you and is the most important learning environment for a pharmacist-to-be. So perhaps standardizing preceptor sites and ensuring that an extern/intern gets full exposure to every aspect of pharmacy and is taught to communicate well is more crucial. A book only gets you so far, it is experience that counts.
Just had 1 quest for the U of A student. How many students actually wanted pharmacy as the 1st choice in their career. ova 75% i bet wanted to do medicine or sumthin else
Thanks for your response UoA student, you make very valid points, and there is a lot of truth to everything that you say. When I speak of students my intention is not aimed at Auckland students only, but NZ students in general, the only reason this is being lead into Auckland students is because I am an Aucklander. I love Auckland University ( pharmacy school) it has great staff and a great curriculum and always aiming to improve.
I really appreciate your comments and It would be great if we could work together in the near future to establish a new criteria for entry. The reason I wrote this article is because the profession of pharmacy is important to me and I would like to see it grow and improve and become more recognised by people generally and other health professionals.
I am showing great concern and not writing this for the sake of writing something. Again I have discussed this with a few colleagues prior to writing this and I seem to have a lot of agreement and that is why I thought there may be some element of truth behind it. Again thanks for your comment it is nice to listen to another perspective on this issues.
Hi Ramy,
Good article with some relevant issues but just a coupla points I'd like to put across:
1. 18 years old is a reasonably young age to expect anyone to pick their life-long career for all the right reasons. Most people grow and discover their passion for certain causes or branches of pharmacy along the way.
2. Natural sense of charisma, being confident or street smart are definitely great qualities that will help us deal with patients and customers in community or hospital pharmacy. But these aren't the only branches of pharmacy that students get to with a BPharm degree. Some students might have life-long goals to be a part of drug discovery in pharmaceutics, or genetic tailoring of therapy through pharmacogenomics, and other academic lines available to them. Being street smart is not necessarily going to be of use to them in those departments. Bear in mind that students do still need to complete internship and have around 2 years work experience before pursuing further education. So admissions committees still need to look for a wider field of skills and talent and give many different potentials a chance.
3. How is a UMAT like test also supposed to locate passion or charisma in a potential student? I reckon a longer interview with a bigger panel of interviewers and a wider list of scenario-like questions would be more helpful.
But again, just to stress, at 18 or 19 years old, most people are clueless as to just how much pharmacy is able to offer.
4. At least 25% of Auckland students did their externships outside of Auckland and a decent number have applied for internships outside of Auckland. Whether they are accepted for those internships or not are down to what the preceptors in the sites prefer, and it has been the case that a lot of students find no choice but to stay on in Auckland. Just putting another perspective to the majority of comments here.
5. Also another perspective would be to compare the number of internship sites available in Auckland, and the number available outside of Auckland. It's safe to say that even a large number of Otago students are currently interning in Auckland. So, it is possible that we may have to look at widening the number of sites available elsewhere so ALL students (Auckland OR Otago) have a higher chance to move out, decreasing the saturation in these parts.
(My assumption here is also that the students carry on working permanently for a few years in the city that they have 'intern-ed' in, hence the large emphasis on internship.)
6. Most the Auckland students have had the chance to work with Otago students through externships and have had an amazing time getting to know their colleagues. There is alot of respect amongst us all. So while we'd like to point out that the generalization that Auckland students are not as excited as Otago students is probably not fair, we've definitely enjoyed working with our counterparts, and look forward to our careers ahead to instill a general sense of confidence in all ABOUT our confidence and passion ;)
Good article Ramy. It's sparked exciting debate in all our classes and some wider perspectives definitely have to be addressed.
Hi Ramy I just want to start by saying I love your blog. It's very realistic and entertaining.
The problem as I see it is that Auckland students are more home-bound. They much rather stay in this city flooded by pharmacists and have no jobs than go to rural areas where pharmacists are actually NEEDED. Maybe that's a selection criteria UoA should look into on top of what you have suggested.
Just my 2c
Well Pran I would like to think that I am, otherwise it would be very hypocritical of me to write this article. And Brittany I absolutely agree with you, having the grades are important and great but you got to have natural charisma, passion, street smart and most importantly common sense and confidence :)
I think this is an amazing article currently I am taking courses to enter pharmacy school and I meet a lot of people who have dreams of entering the medical field.
The problem that I find is that students are not passionate. They do not apply themselves and are comfortable with skating by. I recently visited the University of Maryland School of Pharmacy and they repeatably put emphasis on accepting and wanting the best of the best students with top grades and top scores.
And while I feel those things are very important I think that to be successful in any profession you have to be passionate about working hard and applying yourself striving to be the best. I may not be a 4.0 student but I work hard, I may not understand everything but I use all of my resources and apply myself. I think people who want to be in the medical profession have to be very selfless individuals because they essentially devote their lives for the better good of society!
Hi Ramy
I didn't mean to close university of Auckland. The uni is great so are the lecturers etc etc. its just the pharmacy school.
And you are one of the 20% of pharmacists (I was mentioning before in my earlier comment).
cheers
No question about it that knowledge base is huge, I absolutely agree, what is taught at the universities does far exceed any expectations, however i just think there needs to be a change in selection criteria. As for closing the University of Auckland down, hmmmm I wouldn’t endorse that at all, it’s a great University with excellent lecturers and a very successful programme. Hey if it wasn’t for Auckland University I probably wouldn’t even be here writing this blog.
I agree with you Ramy.
I personally think they should close Auckland pharmacy school.
I have worked with graduates from both schools, and one thing that is obvious is that, Otago graduates are more excited and street smart Ii would say) rather then memorising birds.
I was excited to see Auckland pharmacy school to open but couple of years you can just see the difference.
the natural charisma and confidence is not present in 80% of Auckland students. they are too much home bound .
20% is good. but that's not enough for our challenging profession.
Having 50 years Pharmacy experience "under my belt" I can agree with Ramy about the qualities needed but my own limited experience of graduates has been rewarding. I have found graduates to have an excellent knowledge base, far beyond what they will use in retail and am never surprised when they move on to more challenging roles (clinical, research etc)